pressed in bearing BB's
- Thread starter zsazsu
- Start date
gradeAfailure
New member
Could you not get a machine shop to make some? Should be pretty easy...
rody
Member
GradeAfailure,
No personal offense intended, but I'm always amazed by those who have no fabricating/machining experience when they say..."should be pretty easy." Here is a little info...
To fabricate these collars would take a minimum of 14 cut steps plus the anodizing process to have a finished piece. As a one off run, you're looking at a minimum of 2 hours post design to get the product to a raw state...add another 2 hours for anodizing. So, even conservatively, at a four hour process at a cheap shop rate of $50 per hour makes this "pretty easy" job into quite a laborous and expensive one. Would you be willing to pay $200 for a set of bb collars?
CNC design, with work cut on a Mazak machine, would speed the process, but you would be looking at a minimum of 100 pieces to even get anyone's interest.
People are often amazed at what vintage mtb pieces bring...Yo forks, bar end plugs, one piece bar stem combos, cnc cranks...to replicate any of these for a single customer is an expensive process that is often dismissed because it is easier to pay a bit more money for an item on Ebay than to commit to the work.
There are those who are willing to meet the small niche of the vintage customer, fabricating forks, decals, and the like, but it is small and specialized.
That being said, keep an eye on these forums, as some new products may be coming to the vintage customer soon.
cheers,
rody
Groovy Cycleworks
No personal offense intended, but I'm always amazed by those who have no fabricating/machining experience when they say..."should be pretty easy." Here is a little info...
To fabricate these collars would take a minimum of 14 cut steps plus the anodizing process to have a finished piece. As a one off run, you're looking at a minimum of 2 hours post design to get the product to a raw state...add another 2 hours for anodizing. So, even conservatively, at a four hour process at a cheap shop rate of $50 per hour makes this "pretty easy" job into quite a laborous and expensive one. Would you be willing to pay $200 for a set of bb collars?
CNC design, with work cut on a Mazak machine, would speed the process, but you would be looking at a minimum of 100 pieces to even get anyone's interest.
People are often amazed at what vintage mtb pieces bring...Yo forks, bar end plugs, one piece bar stem combos, cnc cranks...to replicate any of these for a single customer is an expensive process that is often dismissed because it is easier to pay a bit more money for an item on Ebay than to commit to the work.
There are those who are willing to meet the small niche of the vintage customer, fabricating forks, decals, and the like, but it is small and specialized.
That being said, keep an eye on these forums, as some new products may be coming to the vintage customer soon.
cheers,
rody
Groovy Cycleworks
gradeAfailure
New member
Hang on, I want to make sure we're talking about the same part here - the small, circular, alloy collars that sit on the bb spindle either side of the press-fit bearings, that have two threaded grub screws in to secure them to the bb spindle? They're not exactly the most complex piece of machining I've seen on a bike...
I presume they're made out of an aerospace-grade aluminium alloy, right? Something like 6061-T6, which seems to be the standard for brake parts and the like? I'll take one of mine into my designer at work, get an engineering drawing made up, then walk down the road to my local machine shop, then have a chat with the anodisers just round the corner... If I can't get them made cheaper than $100/
I presume they're made out of an aerospace-grade aluminium alloy, right? Something like 6061-T6, which seems to be the standard for brake parts and the like? I'll take one of mine into my designer at work, get an engineering drawing made up, then walk down the road to my local machine shop, then have a chat with the anodisers just round the corner... If I can't get them made cheaper than $100/
rody
Member
GradeA,
Sorry to raise your hair, that's why I prefaced my comments that my response was not personal.
As a bicycle fabricator for over 15 years, I simply told the story as it is. You are correct, I did assume that you have less experience in the bicycle industry than I, and if I was wrong, I apologize.
The issue here is not so much our difference in perspective, but the casual determination of the average consumer that bicycle components, whether a simple bb collar or a frame, should cost much less than the time/effort it takes to fabricate it. This is often not malicious, but a lack of understanding of the steps required in the process.
People are often surprised at the amount of time invested in the creation of a part once the process is expounded upon. I posted previously that this part does in fact take 14 different cut steps. What this means is that for each step, there is design consideration, print creation, machine set up, making the cut, and machine breakdown before the process repeats. You're right, not the most complex piece of machining on a bike, but time consuming all the same.
Given this understanding, maybe you can now relate to how frustrating it is that consumers balk ..."_______ cost's how much? It's just a simple little _____" (fill in the blanks with your favorite bike part )
Now, to save you a bit of time, I'd be glad to spin you up some collars at $99.00 bucks a set, thus, a savings of over 1 dollar US than your anticipated effort. Oh, and as a bonus, neither of us will have to admit defeat as we would both be validated and satisfied in our positions. Just count me a good guy for giving you the "buddy" shop rate .
All in all, I honestly did not mean any offense and apologize if that is how it was interpreted, but please, too, understand how frustration can build from the builders end as well.
cheers,
rody
Sorry to raise your hair, that's why I prefaced my comments that my response was not personal.
As a bicycle fabricator for over 15 years, I simply told the story as it is. You are correct, I did assume that you have less experience in the bicycle industry than I, and if I was wrong, I apologize.
The issue here is not so much our difference in perspective, but the casual determination of the average consumer that bicycle components, whether a simple bb collar or a frame, should cost much less than the time/effort it takes to fabricate it. This is often not malicious, but a lack of understanding of the steps required in the process.
People are often surprised at the amount of time invested in the creation of a part once the process is expounded upon. I posted previously that this part does in fact take 14 different cut steps. What this means is that for each step, there is design consideration, print creation, machine set up, making the cut, and machine breakdown before the process repeats. You're right, not the most complex piece of machining on a bike, but time consuming all the same.
Given this understanding, maybe you can now relate to how frustrating it is that consumers balk ..."_______ cost's how much? It's just a simple little _____" (fill in the blanks with your favorite bike part
)Now, to save you a bit of time, I'd be glad to spin you up some collars at $99.00 bucks a set, thus, a savings of over 1 dollar US than your anticipated effort. Oh, and as a bonus, neither of us will have to admit defeat as we would both be validated and satisfied in our positions. Just count me a good guy for giving you the "buddy" shop rate
.All in all, I honestly did not mean any offense and apologize if that is how it was interpreted, but please, too, understand how frustration can build from the builders end as well.
cheers,
rody
gradeAfailure
New member
My apologies for going off - long day at work was not helping and I probably should have counted to ten before posting, but such is the impetuosity of youth...!
I do have a bit of a background in engineering - 4-year apprenticeship on military jets - so I do know where you're coming from with regards to those who don't understand the complexity of some machining!
However, I'm still going to be going ahead and getting quotes for having about 40 or so collars made up - I've no interest in making money off them, just want to help fellow Fat owners out if I can...
They'll be made of 6082-T6 alloy, which is similar in spec to 6061-T6 but a little easier to get hold of over here. I don't think the threads for the locking screws will need to be helicoiled for a relatively low-stress application - the originals aren't. They would then be hard-anodised, possibly in a nice retro purple colour, or just plain. The locking screws appear to be 10-32UNC thread, and 3/16" in length, which should be easy enough to find.
I may have to pass on your offer though, as I thankfully have a set of collars! Don't think it's not gone unappreciated though!
Anyway, greetings to all over the pond from rainy England!
I do have a bit of a background in engineering - 4-year apprenticeship on military jets - so I do know where you're coming from with regards to those who don't understand the complexity of some machining!
However, I'm still going to be going ahead and getting quotes for having about 40 or so collars made up - I've no interest in making money off them, just want to help fellow Fat owners out if I can...
They'll be made of 6082-T6 alloy, which is similar in spec to 6061-T6 but a little easier to get hold of over here. I don't think the threads for the locking screws will need to be helicoiled for a relatively low-stress application - the originals aren't. They would then be hard-anodised, possibly in a nice retro purple colour, or just plain. The locking screws appear to be 10-32UNC thread, and 3/16" in length, which should be easy enough to find.
I may have to pass on your offer though, as I thankfully have a set of collars! Don't think it's not gone unappreciated though!
Anyway, greetings to all over the pond from rainy England!
Jack Lantern
New member
Being someone w/o any machining experience or knowledge of such I thought it would be no big deal to swing on over to my local machine shop and have him craft me up a set of these. Before I walked in the door I decided to have him make 5 sets (big spender!) so as not to seem cheap or waste his time. After I told him how many I needed it was all I could do to keep his attention long enough for him to tell me that unless I wanted to order 100 pieces this project was a waste of his time and my money. I seem to remember him quoting me 2hrs of his labor and that still didn't cover any anodizing. Guess my view of such matters was far too simplistic for what was actually involved. Now I know better and if anyone has some of these I too might be interested if you're willing to sell.
Cheerio
Cheerio
Spikes
New member
I'd try the older Mavic bottom bracket. It has two rings that are threaded onto it's shell. It is not threaded into the frame's shell, but keeps itself in position by tensioning the two rings. Anyway, here is a picture. You should be able to find one on eBay any once in a while.
Attachments
gradeAfailure
New member
Right, well I can get these made up for what works out at about $20 each, so $40 for a pair - that's machining, hard anodising and locking screws all in. They'll be exactly the same as the originals, and will be silver anodised. Postage to the US would be around the $10 area, unless someone on that side of the pond would be willing to take a bunch and distribute them domestically.
I'll start a separate thread to gauge interest as that price is based on a run of 40 collars.
I'll start a separate thread to gauge interest as that price is based on a run of 40 collars.
A few things
First they are easy to make and quite cheap too if you find a good willing machinist. I had a few set made when fat went under total cost was well under 100. All that is needed is the correct OD round bar stock set screws, boring, parting and taping are all quite simple for a machinist. You see the outer diameter really does not matter as long as you leave enough thickness to hold, with out interference.
Second the collars were never anode at all, and they were not heat treated this is why they crack so easily. They were made from 6k series Al but never got the HT.
First they are easy to make and quite cheap too if you find a good willing machinist. I had a few set made when fat went under total cost was well under 100. All that is needed is the correct OD round bar stock set screws, boring, parting and taping are all quite simple for a machinist. You see the outer diameter really does not matter as long as you leave enough thickness to hold, with out interference.
Second the collars were never anode at all, and they were not heat treated this is why they crack so easily. They were made from 6k series Al but never got the HT.
mainlyfats
Member
So good!
I've had one of these in my Fat cruiser for almost a decade and it's still smooth as silk. There must be 20K KM on it and it still keeps on keeping on. I never bothered chamfering (sp?) the shell, just banged it in there, adjusted the chainline until it was perfect for one speed and rode off into the sunset.
If you're trolling on eBay for one, and want to mate an older frame with older non-compact cranks, be sure to get one of the long ones - 126mm. There are a bunch of 109-113 out there, but not a ton of the touring/mtb length around. Ideal actually would be about 122 in my experience, but I don't think that size ever happened.
Why Phil doesn't make one of these is completely beyond me. Some Tawainese company id making one, so I guess the patent has expired.
Spikes said:
I've had one of these in my Fat cruiser for almost a decade and it's still smooth as silk. There must be 20K KM on it and it still keeps on keeping on. I never bothered chamfering (sp?) the shell, just banged it in there, adjusted the chainline until it was perfect for one speed and rode off into the sunset.
If you're trolling on eBay for one, and want to mate an older frame with older non-compact cranks, be sure to get one of the long ones - 126mm. There are a bunch of 109-113 out there, but not a ton of the touring/mtb length around. Ideal actually would be about 122 in my experience, but I don't think that size ever happened.
Why Phil doesn't make one of these is completely beyond me. Some Tawainese company id making one, so I guess the patent has expired.